Lisa got in touch with a jealous horse problem:
“Alastair,
I have tried several times to lunge line/ground train my horses. However, every time I separate my gelding and filly, they throw a fit to the point it is dangerous. I’ve been working with horses for 20 years and NEVER had this problem! In September, they were moved from one home to another home. Their herd buddies are a gelding and mare Arabian.
What do I do with out getting hurt?!
Thanks,
Lisa”
I know this is a problem we can all relate to, so I thought I’d throw it out to the ‘collective’ as well as to Lara. Please post your answers/comments below!
Jealous horse problem:
Here’s what Lara said:
“I’d suggest two things.
She could just move them to somewhere where she can handle them properly and peacefully (and where they can be with lots of horses).
Or she keeps her two together and leaves alternately with each horse, taking one out for 5 mins then bring it back, extending the time more each day. This way they both get used to being separated – but again it is a slow process and needs repetition. Patience is key with bonding with your horse – especially so in this case.
Hope that helps, but as I always say: if horses are happy don’t move them. If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.
And if you have broken it – what you gonna do to remedy it? It is neither good or bad, it just is.
Lara.”
Wise words from Lara.
Jealous horse problem
And here’s what Patti says – takend from the comments below:
“I’m not sure how helpful this will be to Lisa… but my two (very big) Canadian mares act the same way if I try to separate them.
Like Lisa, I was afraid they were going to get hurt trying to get to each other. So, instead of keeping them apart, I simply took them both out in the field, lunged one, and let the other graze.
They are both fine when I do this- very content in fact- and hardly pay attention to what I am doing with their buddy. Whether it is a round pen, or in a separate paddock with a gate, I guess they realize there is some kind of “barrier” between them. Their stress, or ‘separation anxiety’ (I think- just guessing here at possibilities)is perhaps because
a) they are so close they want to be able to protect each other in case something happens, or b) they might be a little jealous that one is getting more attention-or might be getting something- grass, oats, treats, whatever- that they might ‘miss out on’. Just like kids!!
Jealous horse problem
I haven’t had them that long, so now that they are comfortable with the lunging in the field, I am going to do it in the smaller paddock,(not a round pen) with the gate closed, with both of them inside, then will gradually bring only one into the paddock and close the gate, leaving the other one out.
I think that will alleviate any fears or separation anxiety they have by then. It might help to follow the same pattern each time as well, if one horse is more willing to come to you or be lunged, do that one first every time. I like to reward them before (for coming to me in the field) and afterwards with some carrots, apples or whatever, and they are always willing to work with me.
Don’t know if this is any help but thought I would share because sometimes there is ‘one thing’ that someones else does (and shares in their comments)that often helps me- which is why I love this website.
Patti”
A huge big thanks to Lara and Patti for helping with Lisa’s jealous horse problem – please do leave a comment below if you can help with this one – I’d love to hear your thoughts.
That’s all for today. Please do keep ’em coming.
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Best
I would work both of them together and at liberty. I would establish the leadership role to both of the at the same time. The training DVD’s I have watched, have you directing which direction the are going to circle. Everything with horses has to be broken down into to tiny steps.
Sounds like both horses need a little time tethered to the tree of knowledge where they will learn a little patience & respect.
I recommend work them where they are in close proximity, when we lunge our gelding in the ring, we have the mare (they are joined at the hip!) stand just outside the ring so they can still see each other – in time they will realize things are not so bad, that we are not trying to separate them, and after the lunging/workout, they will be together again … good luck!
We had this same problem but with my stud and mare. We had separated them in the same pin with barbed wire they ran the fence many times before they whined back and forth this happened for two days untill one morning I went out to feed the and she had been standing in his pin it turns out he had been holding the wire for her to get through. If I was you try just putting him or her in a corral in he same pin that way they can get used to not being with each other. With our horses we were trying to avoid her being pregnant but it happened anyways so their always together.
why not geld the stud, that is a sure fire way to stop the un wanted pregnancy & excessive over breeding, I mean who wants to be pregnant all the time and have your babies taken away after wards???
I agree with Victoria!!.
Exactly. The breeding of horses has caused such an over population of unwanted horses that it should be apparent that no run of the mill horse owners should leave studs uncut. Barbed wire…
No horse can hold a fence like that to let an another through is illogical.
I’m not sure how helpful this will be to Lisa… but my two (very big) Canadian mares act the same way if I try to separate them. Like Lisa, I was afraid they were going to get hurt trying to get to each other. So, instead of keeping them apart, I simply took them both out in the field, lunged one, and let the other graze. They are both fine when I do this- very content in fact- and hardly pay attention to what I am doing with their buddy. Whether it is a round pen, or in a separate paddock with a gate, I guess they realize there is some kind of “barrier” between them. Their stress, or ‘separation anxiety’ (I think- just guessing here at possibilities)is perhaps because
a) they are so close they want to be able to protect each other in case something happens , or b) they might be a little jealous that one is getting more attention-or might be getting something- grass, oats, treats, whatever- that they might ‘miss out on’. Just like kids!! I haven’t had them that long, so now that they are comfortable with the lunging in the field, I am going to do it in the smaller paddock,(not a round pen) with the gate closed, with both of them inside, then will gradually bring only one into the paddock and close the gate, leaving the other one out. I think that will alleviate any fears or separation anxiety they have by then. It might help to follow the same pattern each time as well, if one horse is more willing to come to you or be lunged, do that one first every time. I like to reward them before (for coming to me in the field) and afterwards with some carrots, apples or whatever, and they are always willing to work with me. Don’t know if this is any help but thought I would share because sometimes there is ‘one thing’ that someones else does (and shares in their comments)that often helps me- which is why I love this website!
😆 Feel the same way. Good ideas or know hows are always helping someone. Today, after not being able to go to the Farm/Stable where we boardMy 7yr Mare for a wk and She is always easy to carch, well not today. 😮 😀 😀 cShe is in the Herd of 30ish and She would turn away and walk around in the Herd then stop, then when I appoached , She wouild turn away and walk again. This went on for 5′ or so. I was very quiet while walking beside her and turning when she did. Finally she started licking and slowing and then stopped, told her. She was a good girl and haltered her and we walked to the gate. Should I have done differently?
My older one would be frantic when I took the younger one into another paddock leaving her behind. She would race up and down the fence line calling out. I will have both on mine in the paddock. I start with the lead horse and do groundskills with her. Then I move to the second one and do groundskills with her. They will graze whilst the other one works. I have both of them (halterless and leadless) hook on and can walk up and down the paddock swinging a training rope over our heads.
It sounds to me as though these horses are not seeing you as the leader and have no respect for you – have you tried locking the one you are not working in a small yard where s/he can’t get hurt and then taking the other one to the round yard and doing some work with s/he.
By work I mean take her/his halter off and chase the horse around and make it take notice of you – trotting to begin with but then make it canter (trotting is not really work where as cantering is). Make sure you make yourself as big as you can and step in front (safely) and block the horse and send it the other way every now and then, so it is watching you. Then stop, lower your arms and eyes and step back (take the pressure off). Horse should stop and face you. If s/he is still not taking notice of you, do it again, and keep doing it till it does take notice. The horse must choose to be with you rather than work – if that makes sense. Once the horse is looking at you, keep you eyes down, blow out slowing, then walk to the horse’s side, keep your arms by your side and your ‘energy’ down. Stand by your horse and let him/her think about it, then stroke his shoulder etc. then walk off, horse should come with you. If horse tries to move away from you or doesn’t follow, make him/her work again. Remember this is with no headstall and no whip if you can help it – just you and your horse. Good luck with it.
This sounds a little like Monty Roberts “join uo”
take one to a friends farm so they be apart it worked for me !
I have the same problem with my mare-she doesn’t want to be separated from my gelding, even though we’ve only had her for two months and him for 8 months, having never introduced them until we bought our farm in September. He has to be where she can see him at all times, so we put him in the pasture next to hers when working with her. Otherwise, she spends all her time looking for him and calling for him and pays NO attention to me or what I’m wanting her to do. My next fear is that I’m getting him ready to start riding the trail across from our property, and I don’t think he’s going to want to leave her behind with her calling for him constantly.
Hello,
Horses are herd animals. You need to teach them both that they can not be with each other 24/7.
So separate the 2 horses for 10 minutes. Then let them be together again. Keep repeating this process every day but increase the separation time gradually.
Eventually you will be able to keep the 2 horses apart for hope fully longer than a day.
Hope it helps.
Please do not take Dave’s idea seriously! It is plain cruel. Separation can be perceived by some horses as a life and death issue. We need to have compassion and understanding. The best way is to separate them in tiny manageable steps. Be super patient. start with working them both together. then with one outside looking on then move one away and bring for a minute or two and bring it back again etc.
Why not take them both to the stable, leave 1 in, work the other, making sure the stable is safe to withstand a tantrum.
I totally agree with the post from Carol. Separating them by tethering them to different trees is plain cruel, as is James’ suggestion about taking one horse to a friend’s farm. Eventually you have to bring the horse back (unless you’re getting rid of it permanently) and you’ll have the same problem all over again. It’s best to follow Carol’s suggestion about separating them in tiny manageable steps. First, work with them in the same paddock. Then, after a while, put one in the paddock next door where they can see each other, so they won’t get so excited. Eventually you’ll be able to put them in pastures across the barn from each other so that they can’t see each other, and they won’t notice being separated, but this HAS TO BE DONE SLOWLY AND WITH CARE or you may be hurt if the dominant horse really wants to get to the other one. He/she could hurt themself (and you) trying to jump the fence to get to his/her “pasture buddy”. Just take things slow and easy. “Rome wasn’t built in a day”.
H LARA! JUST A QUESTION! IS IT TRUE THAT A HORSE KNOWS YOU LIKE HIM OR HER OR TRUST YOU THROUGH HIS OR HER “EYES!!”? THANKS DORIS HAVE SO MANY OTHER QUESTIONS! THANKS!
I just love the robust debate on this site!
My mare (7 yo thoroughbred) and gelding (20+ standardbred) and inseprable also. My aim is to get them thinkinging I’m the boss, so that they are happy to be with me alone out of the paddock as well as together in. So heirachy of me, him then her (which is what I’ve observed at feed time). So… starting yesterday thanks to Lara’s words and this site’s suggestions; 15 min each out of the paddock, mostly within site lines, some times walking behind the sheds so they couldn’t see each other. Then some ‘nose time’ over a safe gate, then separate again. The whole time I was gently easing their heads towards me to hold their attention, lots of carrots and talk, talk, talk. Trying to use ‘whoa’ for stop and ‘walk on’ for go or follow. It was AMAZING to see my 7 yo respond to my body language when I slowed my pace and ‘softened’ my body next to her… I was so pleased for both of us. I have no illusions I’m going to be able to ride out alone next week, but baby steps until I gain their attention and trust is fine. We have the time and the patience! Good luck to everyone!
PS – I’m a novice horse owner. These two are the first horses I have ever owned, I’m 38 and although I have been riding most of my life I’ve never had their lives and well being depend on me. Thanks Al for a great site full of enthusiastic and horse-loving humans. Oh, and my horses thank you too! 😀
do you have a Stallion within 10 miles? Do you live in a rural area? Your mare is showing predator is near signals. Or, a horse is in season within distance. I would bet on the fear of fight or flight mode. Check for wild dog dens, wolves, coyotes, snakes etc. even a person you may not be aware of. Your experience should tell you this is not normal. Check it out and let me know.
Here is proven method: Take one of the horses and put it in a pin that is safe with hay and maybe special hay such as alfalfa or orchard. Saddle the other one and ride away a distance to equal a time of about 2 minutes. Ride back. Ride away for 3 minutes, ride back. Ride away for 4 minutes, ride back. You get the jest, keep it up. The reason it works, the horse left behind gets anxious then calms down as you return. Then anxious and then calm. This process of anxious then calm actually builds until the horse left behind just says I know they are coming back and I am all out of adrenline so I will just eat my hay. Have patience and remember sometimes you have to do something 100 times not 3 or 4 or 10. Horses relate to repetition.
I totally agree with Lara. It’s ruff but, I have been there.
I have the same problem with my 10 y.o. former racehorse. He suffers from enormous separation anxiety and he will throw dangerous tantrums and behaves like Jekyll & Hyde. All I have to do is show him the bridle or other gear and he starts to hyperventilate (almost.) I try to soothe him but then when I get on his back to go for a ride, and ask him to go forward, he goes backwards. I ride him in circles and try to remain calm, but it’s difficult. I’m just waiting for him to buck me off!
Thank you everyone, I am a new horse owner. I am 60 and had horses as a teenager. Of course i thought I new everything back then. This horse is a 15 yr old Appy who was recently gelded.(I am rescuing him )He very sweet and already started to mellow his stud behavior. He hasn’t been ridden in several years. I am slowly re-introducing to the process. It is so exciting and rewarding when he does what I’m asking. The vet who did the surgery was impressed with his mellow behavior So far I am only doing ground work lunging, Grooming, lifting feet, cleaning his pen, just being close, talking and praising him.This site really helps thanks. Shellie
Check out Buck Branaman- he can help you in so many ways and might even help you conduct a “divorce ceremony”. At the very least you can learn to work with your two without getting injured.Good luck…
ive had this problem too. the young arab seems to think that the other horse is her mum
i wasnt quite sure what to do, but if your with them everyday, i spose you could treat it like weaning a foal.
🙂 hope this helps 🙂
I see sense in Deborah and James. I weaned foals by taking mom to other farm but retaining buddies. when neither could hear the others axious calls things settled quickly. When bringing them back I would have introduced a third party so the same level of attachment didn’t return.
Be sure they are in a very safe place. A friend with a hunter she’d bought from me let him get over attached.One day while she rode in the ring right outside his barn where he could see the other horse,he got frantic and broke his neck spinning around in his stall. My preference is end it, be the alfa for the one you are riding(you need his attention to train) let the other enjoy a different friend.
Barbed wire and horses do not go together, no if or buts, hot wire the fence you can get mobile hot fences that run on batteries we would have one car batterie on the fence and one on charge and just keep changing them over.
I am very lucky my boy doesn’t give a damn about leaving his paddock mates, but please no more barb fences, for horses.
I have two mare who also hate to be separated, I have tried lunging one whilst the other one grazes but they got quite giddy and I ended up leaving them in the school on their own as I got quite frightened by their antics! I think the suggestion of taking them both out on their own for small periods of time is the way forward! good luck.
I have 5 horses that all live peacefully in a herd with plenty of land to roam, no one is ever left alone, so even though 3 are attached to each other and the other 2 are attached at the hip, we can still take them out one at a time or mix & match, there may be some calling & trotting around by the youngest but even he knows they all return to him so he calms down as soon as they are outta sight! never any issues with any of them, I think it is all about letting them know they will not be alone forever, it is good to have another livestock to keep him/her company when left without the other. They really are herd animals after all
Trish has the best solution. The 2 horses are disrespecting you. There are only 2 words in training any animal ALWAYS and NEVER. I like Deborah’s solution also. Remember, both you and your horse can get seriously hurt if he/she does not view you has the leader. Again, the best training tool is that big CHAIR to sit in and think the situation through. Perhaps in this instant its time to consult with a professional trainer.
My gelding is petrified of being left alone without his mare. but as life is, I cannot always go on a outride or a working session same days my daughter does. In the beginning I was there for him but he still went balistic. later he started enjoying spending time with me alone and not worried about her being gone. as time went by he can be alone in his camp without me and his mare at times as he knows she will return. patience and little by little more time seperated from each other makes a huge difference. Now he can even enjoy an outride without being stuck to his mare all the way. no problem can be solved without patience.
Hi guys , maybe try and make a small paddock within the same paddock and put the horse in it.
They will be separated but still together, we did this with our pony and racehorse we used electric fence tape and insulated temporary stakes and now they don’t know what all the fuss is about, Basically we gave them boundaries and the behaviour is much more pleasant. its worth a try.
I think the main point is, herd behavior is not safe when it causes a horse to have separation anxiety to the point of unsafe reactions. The problem is to get a horse to feel safe on his own with the rider / trainer. If another horse is in close proximity while training / riding, there is always going to be some dependency transference that takes away from the horse attaching completely to the person. Slow gradual separation works for horses that are not throwing fits and hurting people.
We have horses at our barn that are trailered away, leaving the barn for trail rides and come back to their pasture mates. We have a couple of pairs of “lovers” Attached horses can go away for a ride separately, but their “lover is anxious in the pasture the whole time. This happens several times a month every month all year long. If they are taken on trail rides together, they have to stay together. Neither respects their rider when they are together on rides. It just plain isn’t safe.
I was riding in a group with the two pair of “lovers”. My husband was riding one of them. I had to drop back and go around a steep embankment that wasn’t safe for my mare to negotiate. She was fine going away from everyone but my husband couldn’t join me because his horse wouldn’t behave and the owner was riding the other “lover”. He insisted they stay together leaving me to go off by myself. Even though my husband felt confident to manage the horse separate from the pair bond, the owner didn’t and wouldn’t let him follow me.
One of the other lover pairs fell back with me so I didn’t have to ride by myself. He mentioned that his horse was being anxious because it wanted to be with its “lover”. I told him, that my horse was calm and his would learn in this safe circumstance that it didn’t have to be with the other to be safe. After about 10 minutes or around the time it took for the others to get far enough away so the horses couldn’t hear each other, his horse settled down. He was amazed. He said it was the first time he had ever ridden separately from the other horse.
My husband never got to ride with me that day. He swore he wouldn’t ride the man’s horses again and wanted his own horse to ride.
So we recently got him one. This horse had been babied by a woman who had him since he was weaned at 4 months. He is 4, and was very pushy dominant at first. Once he learned that we were not going to let him push us around he settled right down. He has only had 1 month of prior training but he now stands to be mounted and has quit mugging for treats. He didn’t want to ride away from the barn though. My husband was determined that he would not have a horse with separation anxiety. So down the road past the barn, back and forth, back and forth they practice every time they go for a ride.
Every time the horse tries to turn off the road into the barn path, back down the road past the path my husband takes him. The horse gets tired of working and finally learns, if he doesn’t turn in, he won’t have to go past the path. He is a young horse and needs to build his confidence, but, we are working on it and he is learning and respecting us more and more every day.
I must say, some horses are neurotic, just like people, they are mentally damaged. Whether they can ever be safe is questionable. We all like to think that Buck and natural horsemanship can fix all horses. BUT if you watched the movie about him, you saw, some horses are NOT fixable. A lady in the movie had a mentally damaged stallion. Buck couldn’t do anything with him to make him safe and didn’t recommend anyone else try after the horse attacked his assistant.
We have the horses we have, we do the best we can with them. Sometimes getting professional help is necessary. Sometimes there is nothing that can be done and we have to decide how dangerous is the problem behavior or if there is a work around if the behavior can’t be cured.
Sounds to me like Lisa is dealing with horses that might hurt her or hurt themselves. Slowly separating with fences between might work, but, only IF the horses can respect her. Since they aren’t she has to find a way to build that respect. She is trying to do that with the ground work. So, maybe first working them attached together, halter to halter, like circus horses is the answer. Working working working, together, for several days then after a together training session of about 30 minutes, work one separate from the other. When they get tired enough, working together, they will be tired enough to work separately. OR maybe they are so attached emotionally, that they will never respect her completely. Its something to consider.
Trish gets my vote. round pen training to gain respect is the ticket. My mare attempts to get one over me all the time..she is smart. I started round penning her free style…what a diff 🙂 We also have a separation problem and it causes major problem when you are at a horse show in the ring. We tie one mare in the corner of a stall. She has learned to stand quietly. Its NOT cruel. human injuries are cruel.
We are going thro this anxiety separation too we moved yards with our 6yr gelding with our friends 12yr mare and put them in to a paddocked together (they were in a herd). Our gelding has changed, he won’t be out of sight of the mare and our friends pony is not too worried and this makes it difficult as they are not so understanding and are becoming inpatient with my concerns. My 12yr daughter who’s pony it is is losing confidence with him even when out together he’s easily spook now and wants to rear and gallop off, do you think we should wait our time or go back to the yard he was happy with but we weren’t. 🙁
Hi All,, I am new to the horsey owning business :grin:. I brought a Shetland yearling about 3 months ago, up until I brought her she had been with her mum and other mares and foals and was untouched, she doesn’t have separation anxieties but I would still like to share with you what I have done with her coz I am very proud as I fee I have done very well with her.. anyways she still living in the location I brought her so with her mum and others, all the foals got separated from their mothers when I got her but visual contact still remand, at first it was standing in field letting her curiousity take over and lots off carrots, and ive worked with her everyday since, :grin:, the mares have recently been put back in with the foals,took her for a walk COMPLETELY out of sight and sound of her herd the other day and was brilliant behaviour but it started off with taking her out the field just the other side of the fence so could still see and touch others while grazing and gradually got further down the track and she has not had a problem since, hoping she doesn’t gain any problems as older but seems to have worked so far.. hope my little rant/blabbing on has helped someone 🙂
Katie
Maybe try some Quitex
i’m a disabled horsewoman,When I work my horse in th roundpen He’s much quieter/safer if I give him a little quitex 2 hours before we work
I have a big off the track gelding that becomes terribly agitated as soon as he is taken from any other horses. It is very dangerous for me on the ground or on him. He won’t keep his head down either so will throw his head back and hit me. I have taken it back to basics and worked with him on the ground with some good results but I won’t pretend to know much on natural horsemanship. I have been trying to establish a bond with him where he sees me as a leader and is consious of where I am around him but I have no idea where I should go next. Any advice is really welcome and appreciated! Please Help! I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing!
i have a mare and a gelding that had the same problem. when the gelding needed vet attention he suggested that i feed them on opposite sides of a fence. after 1 week of feeding them with a fence between them – bingo bob – no more buddy sour!