SC has been in touch with some horse nipping advice – can you add to it?
“Never ever tolerate a nip or bite! Following advice seems good:
DeeDee is almost correct. John Lyons does recommends going after them like you are going to kill them. But he has very specific rules.
1) You must start with a second or two. Any more than that and it is revenge, not training. If you can’t start on time, be more alert for the next instance.
2) Use whatever is available, but you can’t touch their face or lower legs–or cause actual damage.
3) Use your voice, body and whatever you can get your hands on and RAIN HELL DOWN ON THEM. Yes, even for a “nip.” Any horse nipping is bad news. A nip is just testing the waters before a bite.
4) Don’t go 30 seconds (sorry DeeDee, you miss remembered this step) . . . hell should last for only 2 or 3 seconds. Trust me this time really only allows for one good swing, which often as not misses as the horse jumps back away from all the anger being directed at it. It’s the intent that counts not the pain.
5) Then as DeeDee says, go on as normal. No residual anger. Incident over and forgotten.
As some of you are already starting to compose you reply’s hating this use of force and anger. Please picture this:
A horse in the pasture reaches over and bites another horse. What happens? If the bitten horse is Alpha it will react quickly exploding anger and with a bite or kick, then go back to grazing.
Doesn’t that sound exactly like John Lyons recommends. What a bitten alpha horse will not do is:
1) Ignore the incident
2) Make nicey nicey with the horse nipping biter
3) Chase the offender all of the pasture trying to catch them to punish them
4) Corner the offender kick/bite on them over and over
BIting (and remember horse nipping is biting, it’s just a question of degrees) and Kicking can never be tolerated. It must be addressed immediately and with no ambiguity. For your own safety, you must be the Alpha in the herd. Communicate in your horses’ own language to make this very clear.
SC”
And now some more tips which aren’t just on horse nipping stuff:
“Great tips. However, what has worked for me for 17yrs on many different tethered travellers horses I take water to and my own twp rescue horses, is to approach from the side without speaking and offer my nose. No hands. Rubbing noses works every time for me in gaining the trust of badly treated horses. My own horses I use no voice for instruction just signals as a horse understands body language far better than voice.
Ann”
“I love all the tips and comments. Having grown up with horses, my Dad always taught me to have respect, to be calm and never be loud and aggressive in my attitude. I am almost sixty and I still hold the firm belief that horses like humans come in different packages and personalities and each one needs to be treated accordingly. Some are so quiet one can trust a newborn with and others are so strung out it seems they feel a gust of air is going to kill them. We as their guardians have to learn their messages and treat them accordingly and teach them what we want and expect from us. For me it takes four main letters and they are a constant in my life – QGPT – QUIET GENTLE PATIENCE TIME. With those four things one can be rewarded with a lifetime of trust and love – what more can a girl want from her horse?
Anne”
That’s all for this time – please do leave a comment below if you can help with horse nipping or anything horsey.
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I’m right there with him. Like you say it will be a hit or a miss. My stallion did me like that as I was removing his halter. Luckily I was right on with a left hook. The only thing was it took him a little while to let me walk up and halter him. All is well and no nip anymore.
A horse owner and handled so many other animals in my life, managed horse stable on a military institution…always kept the horses as a herd, but built trust one on one. All new arrivals would be put through a few weeks of quarantine, where one could slowly gain trust and respect by letting the horse approach you, while you carry on your daily chores of care without bothering it. Let it build the curiosity and friendship, always show care and respect, and the love and trust is never ending.
In my experience backing them up assertively for about 50ft will usually my them think twice about trying it again. If they do try it again just repeat the backing & they will soon find that biting is too much work. Have a great weekend 😀
SC’s advice is sound. It is hard but it should not need to be repeated often. Ann and Anne have nice sentiments but do not address the immediate action to correct..
I’ve been fortunate to have had several excellent natural horse trainers in my journey (late in life)to better understand my horses and become a better, safer horseman. They ALL advocated the advice of act immediately and with full intent and then “let go” of it. Always act the way an alpha horse acts. It sure works for me. My horses are not afraid of me, they respect me and follow me around when I’m doing chores in the corral. It’s wonderful to have this relationship. Anger NEVER works for horses or any other animal, including humans.
Oh no… I’m pretty much right there with you SC. But I have to work within my limitations…
For example, I am not very quick. Usually they get away with at least that first nip/bite. So Ok. I don’t panic (but I do beat myself up a little), but I go ahead and think of WHY the biting…
I have 4 stallions and 11 mare/fillies… So… I have to think of WHO it is, THEN the WHY. Not that I can always guess the WHY, but I take into consideration their ages (like, my 2 year old ponies are a bit more mature than my 2 year old Holsteiners), and since right now it is SPRING, I actually get myself ready to fight this battle a little more often.
I have 2 Holsteiner studs. They are 16 or 16.1, and I am 5’2″. So, when I get nipped, a quickly applied, swift kick in the chest usually gets their attention and they back away. This is not unlike what a mare would do if she doesn’t “want them”. In fact, I have discovered that, since I supervise and/or hand-breed my studs, this definite boundary established EARLY ON really helps me handle them later.
But yeah… Biting is NEVER a good thing, even inadvertently (like, when I was caught between two mares who were ascertaining herd order). I was injured, but I tried to rain as much Hell on BOTH of them as I could because they needed to know *I* was “on top”. If I’m in the herd (or a vet, or one of my young nephews), they don’t need to be doing that.
Sorry for prattling… Main point is, with me (if I haven’t thought about it already and have a plan of action when the biting occurs), I am definitely ready for the NEXT time. Believe me… It will come.
Cheers.
Right on. These steps are crucial and it needs to happen within those first few seconds. Do as horses do and the nipping and biting will stop. Alpha isn’t force. It can be, although it’s mainly the energy you carry at your core. Horses can be very dangerous animals… Even calm ones. We are small in comparison. I’ve seen pony’s run herds. Its energy. Even a look with hard eyes sends a message. I never ever want to hit or hurt my two horses. I love them like crazy. AND, they know I’m alpha. I guess it comes down to whether or not you’re open to being hurt and having skin missing. These guidelines are right on.
I totally agree! I read the same advice from John Lyons when I had a biting situation with my Arab when I first got her. She bit me so hard one time in the back as I was cleaning her feet, that I had a major welt and bruise for days! So, the next time she reached for me, I caught her right away and raised my voice, my arms, and “flailed around” wildly– only smacking her on the neck-shoulder area one time. (I am a quiet, low-key person around her, otherwise)It scared her more than anything, but guess what!?–no more biting!!! It was a short, loud, and sudden eruption on my part and then we went about our business. She got the message! It seemed to also help with her other attitude exhibits, also, as I think she realized that “she wasn’t the boss of me” !!
🙂 Good comments on being the lead horse in the herd!Correct and get over it. If their human is the lead horse they will respect you and not challenge by biting.
Differences in horses, differences in situations,and differences in handlers are all part of making the correct response to a particular incident.
I’ve done all the things suggested with horses that bite and they worked for me. I’ve also stopped horses from nipping, while grooming or girthing, by placing my hand on the side of their jaw as the head swung around and simply replaced the head in a forward position. It did have to be done repeatedly but it did eventually work. This particular idea came from Alois Podhajsky, a former director of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, Austria. A trainer I had monthly clinics with,Hubert Rohrer, who studied for 10 years under Podhajsky, said a horse would do absolutely anything for Podhajsky.
It appears to me that a handler’s attitude and the ability to act immediately so a horse can make a connection between his own action and the consequence (whatever it might be) that comes from the handler is very important to the success of the method.
As much as possible,I like to use methods that don’t involve painful or intimidating punishment but I don’t rule them out. Some situations with some horses can require it. Fortunately, in the instances harsh tactics were needed, the horses were new to me and soon we learned how to better communicate and things got pleasant between us.
I agree that RAIN HELL DOWN ON THEM for a bite or a kick is appropriate as long as the duration of the raining is no more than 2 seconds. I do NOT believe a nip is the same as a bite. A nip can be a love sign if it is done softly and raising my voice with a firm NO is what has worked for me. I really believe that kicking and biting are the ONLY two things to EVER require brief punishmment, and only punish mine the exact second they do it.
Oh yeah, and NEVER EVER is it ok to use anything other than a firm hand. No sticks, boards, rocks, whips or reins. Firm open palm ONLY.
Great advice!
My neighbours purport to be extremely knowledgable about horses yet they have both often kicked their horses and the younger actually beat her new horse with a piece of hose pipe because it walked too quickly for her while she was leading it. Witnessed by a second neighbour. Needless to say that horse refused to do cross country for her, was sent to be schooled to do so and fortunately for the horse the trainer bought it from them. Hopefully a kinder person.
I agree with SC. I have worked with horses for almost 70yrs and have rarely been injured. If you make “nicey, nicey” with horses you just go lower and lower in the heard ranking and loose all respect from your horses. Must be alpha but you do not need to be cruel.
My 26 yr old mare kicked me once and nipped me once as a foal, was reprimanded immediately for both and has never offered either again.
My foxtrotter started nipping me gently, it kept escalating until she brought the blood. My reaction was immediate with a hard slap on the nose. That was two years ago, it has never happened again.
Thank you – such a great help! My 2 mares will thank you also. S
Thank you!
I volunteer at a equine center for handycapp children, when girthing the horses they put their ears back and want to nip you, we do have some instructors that tighten the girth so darn tight,in this case you can;t punish the horse,what else can be done,if any,.Thanks Dorothy
Absolutely agree with SC.
Love reading all the tips I have never had a problem with my young horse got him as a crazy wild yearling but after 3 days he became my best mate he has never bitten or kicked I do use my body and point in directions I would like him to go if he does have a teenage moment I point directly in between his eyes and say no it stops him in his tracks lol
This biting problem hits home with me! I want to make sure I’m doing the right thing before I try it. My trainer says that my horse bites me because I give him treats. He responds super well to treats for training him anything. I think I could get him to ride a lion if I gave him a carrot. Do you think it is unfair to give him treats and then punish him for biting me, if that is causing it? I don’t see, as intuitive as horses are, why they can’t figure out that I can give him a bite of carrot yet he can’t bite me. I have also noticed he is biting less now that I’m doing ground work with him. So wondering if it is less the treats then the respect.
I give my horses treats but they know a treat an when
I don’t have one at first they neped alittle but a ferm no an back hand they soon learned horses are very smart as we all know.
What can you do about a horse who chews his lead ropes in two while he is tied up.
🙂 excellent timing. after agreeing with SC’s comment yesterday my Mustang bit me on the leg as I cleaned his hoof. I swung around and punched him ih the ribs. He jumped away. We looked at each other acknowledging what happened then I went back and cleaned the hooves, no issues.
Earlier in the day the 2 Mustangs were running around in a panic over something they saw across the fence. After seeing it was one of my young sons stalking through the woods after a deer all camouflaged up, I walked bravely up the back fence. Both horses swelled with confidence and followed me up the hill, breathing heavy and ready to help me defend the property. Without the leader taking action they were absolutely worked up.
me up the hill breathing heavy and ready to help me fight the monster.
With a horse that is a regular biter it works well to hold its tongue between its teeth for a while. It soon learns that it hurts! We use our protruding elbows flailing around as a block to warn a horse that it is not a good idea to try to nip or bite and they then don’t see it as your being violent! They soon learn that they must not invade your space in this way. I have never been bitten since I started employing this strategy, even with badly disturbed horses which we have rescued.
To gain some respect and have LESS / no biting never give your horse a treat or feed until it has done at least ONE job ( obey a command ) before you allow it to eat.Yeah watch horses in the paddock when one nips another. The bitten horse usually only takes a few steps towards its attacker to express its disapproval and then goes about its own business – all is forgotten or be it forgiven.
We are 4 people stabling 6 horses together. 3mares (1 TB ( 5Yrs)Think it’s born with the ears back , 1 Pony- (6 Yrs) Rescued kicking machine ,1 Mixed ” Farm Horse” also rescued but loved to pieces now ( 14 Yrs))
1 Geldings TB (7 Yrs)( Spoilt brat)
1 colt – Kicking mare’s baby 6.5 Months old too cute , loving sweet cheeky little big man. – soon to be gelded.
The ” Farm horse” is my baby and I find that she is with the group but not in it, always on the side. They tend to bite and kick at her and I’m always in between protecting her with “slaps” and sounds as soon as it happens. They won’t let her drink water in peace after feeds. Yet on outrides they worry about us if we are lacking behind. They actually call out to her to catch up if lacking behind. The Gelding crosses the street and turns around to see if she is following. Please advice why are they “picking” on my girl is she too old for them or is she the Farm Girl.
Hi Charmaine
She is just the lowest in the pecking order of the herd. She is still a member of the herd, hence they make sure she is keeping up, just a very lowly member. She knows her place and you will probably find that she is only bullied when you arrive on the scene and head straight for her (she’s yours so obviously that is what you do) but try to be more aware of the herd order. Greet the others in order of dominance, go to your mare last, halter her and lead her away to a safe place where you can lavish all your love and attention on her without causing her to “be in trouble” with the rest of the herd. Have extra sources of water, far apart from each other, so she can get a drink, they can’t protect all the water sources at the same time. Horses were meant to live in herds so unless she is getting hurt when you are not around, don’t remove her from the herd. My gelding had the same problem until I learned not to interfere and he learned to wait for me off to the side. 😉
not holding onto the anger is a great point. When our egos get in the way – and that is easy when we are hurting after a bite, that is what causes problems.
I like to look at the horse nipping as a test of leadership rather than dominance. I am not fond of the word alpha. When we are clear leaders, the horses will trust us because they can depend on us. When we fiddle around and are unclear, a game of leadership starts. That is usually what leads to the playful nipping which can escalate. The comment about synching up tight is another scenario that causes biting. If the horses are reacting to something they are in the flight and fight mode. That synch is tight and they cannot get away, so have no option but to communicate with a clear message – the bit or kick – if that reaction is taken out of them at this point through strong punishment, they will remain stressed, which will end up with them being more reactive in the saddle, or turn into illness. because at this point you will not be a leader – you will be a dominator,
Ok heres my take on Biting. Supposedly you have an established relationship with said horse. Violence begets violence. Why not scold the way you would do with a dog? Horse wants to please you idelly. Horse already knows you are not another horse who would return said Bite. 🙂
I’m working(leasing) a very soft horse who doesn’t bite but if he tests me the ole human buzzer works.
I read about “footfall”, horses generally control each other through making the less dominant ones move their feet. You should establish dominance through, gently, making your horses move their feet, lean on them, nudge them and try to keep your feet still. my filly tried to bite me as I moved her hay net so I immediately walked strongly towards her and made her back away. No shouting, no hitting, no overt aggression, she hasn’t tried again.
any advice on retraining my mare to have her feet picked out? following on from laminitus she’s lashing out in every direction. I do hang on most of the time and smack her shoulder/haunch if I have to let go.
had 3 like that. 2 were `out` in the back end. after physio treatment they were both fine though had to be repeated about 12 months later.
the 3rd had to do different. it was not possible to pick up feet after purchase. cut carrots into million pieces. crosstied him. then starting on front feet asked him to pick up for micro seconds and slowly increasing the time. each effort no matter how small he received a slither of carrot. took several days but was soon picking up feet and then we phased the carrot slivers back out and gave lots of praise at the end
I would go back to basics..rub her legs above the knee..go to another leg..take each in turn and praise and rub gently go to below the knee..ask for the foot ..when she complies rub above the hock..release!Gradually increase the area you rub and include the hoof briefly..release the foot BEFORE she becomes agitated..She needs to be confident you will not cause her pain and that she will not become trapped on three legs..in order to calm themselves horses move their feet so while you are doing this do NOT tie her up..go into a larger space where she can move and simply follow her till she stands still and relaxes(on a lead rope of course)place your left hand on her break of withers then go to her left front leg..if she moves follow her and repeat..do not reprimand her for moving when she allows you to touch the leg rub the sweet spot and leg together..slide, without removing, your left hand down her back and repeat on the back leg..then go to right side..It is crucial that if she wants her leg back you dont hold on at this stage so be sure to release sooner rather than have this happen as it would be counter-productive..good luck!
SC – In my humble opinion you gave the perfect answer. Works a treat, no cruelty, establishes your role as the leader, what more can you want from an answer.
To the lady with the problem, be ready, read the clues, horses don’t just bite out of the blue, they give clear indication, unless you are repeating something they don’t like all the time. Look at what you are doing and try to change the situation and avoid this confrontation.
When I got my paint colt at 2 I had had him a lilover 6 months when I went to feed him (had a older horse I was boarding) I put Franks food down first and was putting Peyotees down when he turned and bucked at me grazing my hand. I round housed himput him back in his pen and he had his moment where he ran thelength of pasture to barn for a few times then when I told him NEVER kick at me again and put his food down he never did anything ever again to this day! he is being road and trail broke and the trainer just adores him and said He is the best horse he has had the pleasure of working with in years and the smartest also!!! But that round house bout killed me for having done it cuz I am not aggressive to ANY animal!
A horse biting at the girth area (boot or not) can be a sign of ulcers, especially if he is a stall kept horse, or competition horse, since they are more prone to ulcers. This may not be the issue, but check out thus video. Very informative and everyone should know this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4
Hello, how do you correct a 2week old filly? She is list starting to nip,I have slapped her nose when she tires to nip but she is still trying. I don’t want to hurt or make her afraid of me.Thank you correct
Excellent advice. I do this with my boys if they forget themselves. Real quick he’ll then all forgotten. Brilliant
I work with a quarter horse x Arabian who was known for being aggressive. after the owners threatened to have him put down if his behaviour did not improve I decided to work with him. he would try and bite or kick me any chance he got. I decided to look into his history and I discovered that he had been abused by his previous owner and this made me realise that he did not trust people.
I would sit just outside his stall for hours at a time to get him used to my presence. after a while I started standing outside his stall. the first time I did this he charged at me, ears back and mouth open. all it took to stop him in his tracks was a harsh glare, a raised hand and me saying ‘go on, I dare you.’ in these situations it is important not to give up your “space” [ unless of course the horse doesn’t stop and you could get seriously injured.] he has never charged at me since. He was also known for biting people when they got to close to him. I have found that a swift slap to the shoulder works well. He once tried to bite me whilst I was leading him, I put some pressure on his neck with my elbow and pushed his head away with my hand. If you are leading them and they try and bite you, a swift flick on their nose also works wonders.
Whilst I was brushing his tail one day, I noticed his ears flatten against his head and him raise his back leg to kick me. I slapped him on his backside and yelled “OY!”. I have never had a problem with him kicking me since.
that was two years ago.
After a lot of ground work to gain his trust and to establish that I am in charge, I rode him for the first time a few days ago. He was well behaved and did everything I asked of him.
He has improved so much that a few weeks ago when he was lay down in his stall I was able to walk in and sit next to his head. after greeting me with a few sniffs of my hands he lay his head in my lap and went to sleep.
We have learnt to trust each other and have also become best friends in the process. and I am also happy to say that he is no longer in any danger of being put down for bad behaviour.
AJ 🙂
Hi guys and Al,
PL some more advise on Jo Ann and Terry’s problem?
Especially Terry, as it is a foal. I start working foals as soon after birth as situation allows…ie bonding.I also use TTellington Touch methods and Natural Horsemanship training. Animal Behaviour training ie positive re – enforcing and reward and HEAPS of gentle patience. Worked so far. Special field of interest is Riding for the Disabled and IHC…individually handicapped children. AMAZING what horses do for these kids!! 😀
😉
After about 2 months of being a perfect gentleman, my new 17 y.o. Quarter horse started nipping and attempting to bite anyone who walked near him.(He had a history of being a competitive jumper and had done a lot of traveling). Finally, after checking with the vet, we treated him for gastric ulcers–28 days of Gastrogard–and the biting has almost stopped. Marilyn
i do question if violence is the only way, or is it the only way we know?
zebras are very brutal little equines. having evolved fighting lions to survive, they think nothing of attacking people. parents get them for children, only to find the animals grow to be so vicious one cannot even enter their paddock.
this situation is common that there are zebra rehab stables in the states. clicker/behaviour marker training is used with great success. zebra cannot be smacked or they will attack without inhibitions.
i admit if horses have gotten cheeky with bites in the past i have used some type of physical intimidation as a response, typically with success, but the zebra trainers success rate with an animal in the same family, but a far more violent version suggests to me that violence and intimidation may not be our only options.
Great advice from SC (and John Lyons!)2second Borstal works a treat followed by “business as usual”.I attended a serial biting stallion recently whose problem was confidence..after working on the ground -moving his feet and establishing my authority as his herd(of 2) leader he then stood and did his “party piece”(his owners description)which was actually a form of wind sucking!He was stressed at losing his position as boss of the world despite not having the right to the job as he was too young but as he had been kept apart from a herd,he hadn’t had that explained to him by herd leaders..By becoming his herd leader he stopped biting and stressing and was much happier as a result..When you are with your horse in either the stable or the field you should ALWAYS be his leader!