My word – an absolute flood of comments and mails on Tracey’s ‘biting’ post.
Two really stuck out for me – here they are:
“Tracey,
One thing that stood out to me me was that you recently attended a workshop &, as I interpreted,began to learn how to become your horse’s alpha leader. Am wondering what behaviors your horse may have had prior to the workshop that you wanted to work on?
Horses are keen on reading other horses & they communicate through body language. You said ‘nip’ on your back….not shoulder, which would have been more convenient if your horse had intent to harm. Am wondering if this seemed to be in irritation by the horse or a gesture of dominance?
Horses can read confidence in our language….as well, they can be inclined to challenge new ‘language’ from us. They will test boundaries.When you were @ the workshop, this was a structured environment with a professional that could intervene when needed. One workshop is not going to teach you what you will need to know & learn with more experience with horses.
Horses don’t ‘love’ us they same way we love them, but never discount the leadership that earns respect, therefore in the horses mind, a since of safety which ultimately, for them, intends a sense of love. When you achieve this, you may capture their heart and this is a bond that is worth so much. I trust my animals more than people because they don’t lie.
Welcome to our horse world….it will take to heaven & earth, never to hell.
Respect between us & our horses is,ideally mutual & sometimes a challenge to maintain.
I have an OTT thoroughbred that had never tried to ‘hurt’ me in any way.About a year ago (have had this horse 15 yrs) he took an aggressive snap @ me when I went to pet on him as he was eating..I had done this often. If he had wanted to get me, he could have. It was a very firm warning to me not to bother him while he was eating. this is the only time he has ever done this but I do respect his space more, though I still approach him while hie is eating….sometimes he will stop & look @ me as if to say thank you.
All I did @ the time was yell ‘hey!’ @ him.
I have a ‘rescue’ thor. mare that is very alpha & does not like to be approached while eating, so I take this opportunity to approach her. She will be initially disgruntled, but I don’t leave until she allows me to place my hand on her neck & rub her.She needed to learn tolerance & this has worked…with her. I can do things with her in her stall now that I know she wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else….it has taken alot of time, but she no longer pins her ears @ anyone when they stand outside her stall. this process took over 1 yr….have now had her 3 yrs. & she is so much happier.
You have taken on a rescue horse as a beginner…get all the help you can & enjoy the progress you are making. You will end up with a bond that will amaze you.
Carol”
“Hi Tracey,
Firstly… Don’t feel bad about using you Palm on him. If he had done that to another horse he would have copped a lot more than a palm in the nose I tell you now lol. Remember that he is a horse, not a human toddler.
I can see two reasons as to why he may have bitten you…
1. PAIN RELATED
If you were touching him in an area that is sore it is a very normal reaction. We, as humans do the same. DON’T TOUCH IT… IT HURTS!! My fella is lovely but came to me in a world of pain and was always nippy when touched in the sensitive areas. It is not to be tolerated but doesn’t need to be resolved with aggression either. Just remember that he is a horse and expects reactions as such. When working with him always keep one eye on him and stop the thought process before it becomes an action. You know if he is thinking about biting if you watch him. He will give you a sign that is what he is thinking! Stop the thought process with gentle and strong persistence.
2. ALPHA STATUS
With some horses, once you become the Alpha they will challenge you, especially if they have been in control for some time. For others it is like they revert back to foalish behaviour. I find this with race horses as they generally they never got to go through the whole learning process properly as they are broken in early and sent to work. At the moment it would appear that I have a 6year old, 500kg foal in my paddock. He is hysterical and people just stop and enjoy him playing with me. He still tries the foal nips and takes off at 100mph when I give him the look of NO! And yes he does comic running back to me at 100mph for cuddles immediately as well… Lol Don’t make the biting thing acceptable. His mother wouldn’t. She would reprimand that behaviour very quickly. He would be bitten back, possible kicked or sent out of the herd until he wanted to behave and have some manners and respect.
Be firm and consistent in what is unacceptable behaviour and reward what is acceptable behaviour. He will understand quickly and try to please you.
Remember he is a horse at all times. It’s easy to forget. Love him with all your heart, be consistent with him. Consistenty is the key to everything! If he is confused he will not react the right ways and love him him to pieces by placing rules and boundaries. Understand completely the differences between being aggressive and being assertive. Being assertive is all you need. Learn to think like a horse as you will struggle to make him think like a human. Watch them in their natural environments. Watch them “speak” to each other. There is no point being Alpha if you don’t understand their language. That can just become dangerous and frustrating.
Most of all I give you credit for saying “why”. So many don’t and stay in that place for to long. Hats off to you and I hope you learn to love Leaning the silent and wonderful language that is that of the horse! It’s a wonderful language to know
Michelle”
A big thanks to Michelle and Carol – and to everyone who contributed.
Please keep ’em coming.
Best
Al
Tracey my. First thought Was why did u go into a Rope Halter @ lead u haven’t had the horse lon
my guy gets a little nippy while being groomed or held for the farrier. I’ve started putting a rub rag through the nose band of his halter. This has helped a lot. Why do you bother your horse while it’s eating? Annie Kobza
Yes, very good information, BUT how she can learn horse language when she have only a horse and held in a paddock ?
When I had my first horse (Magic)I held her with other 2 horses in a over one acre pasture. I have her in 8th may 2011, and could not put the saddle on her till in the end of august. That long took her to recover from starvation.
Magic being with other horses I could learn their interaction, then watching videos (DVD’s and You Tube), magasines and books.
You have to make the conditions to learn, for you and for the hores, and not other ways.
Emma I use to sit in a paddock, any paddock and watch horses. I still do it now 30 years later. I love try to predict what they will do with each other, pick which one is in control and just the way they interact. For me, I had to step out of my own environment to learn as I had my horse at the time on his own too. I was also lucky enough to have a father that would sit with me when I was very young and play the “what’s going to happen next” game. He was pretty good at it too I may add. Sometimes we would ring a stud and ask if we could go and watch the horses. Never was a problem back then and a great way of learning a horses natural behaviour. There are ways or exposing yourself to learning if you have to time to do so
I have owned by pony for 6yrs. When I am leading him down the track he always thinks there is something behind him. He will then strike out with his front legs & then stand & buck. I know his previous owner tried to drive him & something happened which is why he is scared. It is now making me nervous & am not the most confident person. How can reassure him? He is even like this when out hacking & I am now only riding him in the school. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you fiona
Fiona,
Very fun conversation. I have two professional trainers helping me with my 5 Mini Horses. Which I do drive and take to nursing homes. Whatever scares your horses is what you do more of. Whatever method you have of leading your horse you do that with a lot of reassurance. When I am desensitize training my two year old Mini B Stallion,
Skiddles, HE was freaked out of things behind him as well. I enroll a friend to walk behind him and touch him everywhere, making noises ect. I get to reassure and work him out until he is sure he is not going to get eaten. Two days ago we were walking through my husband enormous garage with crap everywhere. What spooked him was two of the really old outdoor metal chairs. After the initial I am okay. I lined them up with the exit door with just enough room to pass. My beautiful skiddles was scared it took us 20 minutes of reassure and he walked through without a gallup. Then we turned around and went back through. My trainer said whatever scares them drive them work them into that, they will know the are safe if you are calm.
I have a 4 yr. old tenn. walker. shes like a pet follow me around all the trainer wants to charge me $450,I can ride and saddle her, but she has no direction pls help
I was having trouble with a 15yr old mare I bought 1yr ago. She just wouldn’t do anything I wanted. I was to the point of getting rid of her or paying a trainer $500. I decided she was worth the effort so bit the bullet and paid for some training. Turns out my mare was well trained but had been unhandled for so long she was used to having her way. The trainer refreshed her skills and also taught me how to manage her better. It was well worth every penny! I now have an intelligent alpha mare who is mutually respectful and I have the training as well on how to keep her that way. Go for the training! You will be glad you did and many trainers are willing to work with you on payment.
The best way you have to understand your horse, second start watching videos, like on You Tube SCEA training Fancy, or Greg Cox, read magazines like Horse & Rider, The trail Rider, Equus, Horse Ilustrated, and are many books . That way I learned.Remember I am over 60 and in 2010 I started to ride horses, and in 2011 I had my first horse, she is a TW. And spend a lot of time on ground work
😉 Just join one of the horse trainers like Parelli.com; Clinton Anderson.com, Monty Roberts or Dennis Reis.com. You can find lots more but I like Parelli the best. I have taken lessons with over 20 trainers and still learning; but, you can join Parelli for only $9.95 online with all the problems answered in lessons that still take time and devotion. Check them out. They will give you a month free to try. You have to work with your horse more than once a week to achieve the respect and understanding to achieve this communication. My mare will follow me around without a lead she wants to be with me and pulls cart/western and English. Still working on the finishing and it’s not easy. My mare is dominant and pushy…it’s taken a long time for me to get her respect. Hope you pick a one of the trainers to help you…
Hi! I’ve been enjoying reading all your comments. One of the things I do when working with a horse is by desensitizing with a crop that has a plastic grocery bags tied to the end. I will use that to make noise around the horse and pretty soon they can be rubbed with the plastic bag. I always keep the crop, with the plastic bag still attached, in my back pocket. They have a healthy respect for that plastic bag and I have no problems with nips or anything. Just their full attention while I’m grooming or petting. Works wonders!
Fiona,
A quick thought here. 6 years is a long time for this behavior to go on no matter what your pony’s bad experience was. I am thinking maybe you need to let go of his bad experience so he can too.
One suggestion off the top of my head is trying circles when he ‘cues’ you that this is about to happen. Walking down the track, when you ‘feel’ his cue…circle. This will distract him from his intention to act out. He will likely catch on to the same circle all the time so then you make then different….circle a figure 8, surpinetines, don’t let him anticipate you or you will lose the distraction effect. This is also a good way to let him know you are in control which supports your alpha status & will help him feel safe.
Carol
I have a filly coming on 2 years old that is totally deaf. I have attempted to work her in a round pen but need training suggestions as the regular clicking and kissing cannot work.
The horse I learned on 30 years ago bit, kicked and bucked. He never succeeded in getting me on any count, though he did take off with me in the snow and try to throw me into a freezing filthy duck pond one February. I think I was lucky in that I had a stronger will to stay on than he had to get me off! I always carried a crop. I never had any intention of using it! He just had to be able to see it was there when he turned round and I could see he was assessing whether he might risk taking a chunk out of my leg! He taught me very well! I think he was basically a joker testing me to see how dominant he could be. He did get a lot of people off! You need to learn to be the leader as even the nicest horse can be dangerous if you are not, but being the leader never means using any kind of weapon.
I am a little confused. Modern ethological research by Lucy Rees and others (take a look at Epona TV) have now debunked the Alpha horse myth. Respect is a human concept, there is no need to dominate our horses, rather we should work with them. They know we aren’t horses and we haven’t really much of a hope to be able to communicate with them in their own language as it is so subtle. Horse society is complex and domestic horses are generally kept in conditions that just aren’t natural to them. Scuffles break out because of scarce resources.
Although Natural Horsemanship is a step in the right direction and I have followed those principles with my horse, I have now left the fold for a more science based approach and have taught Bracken with the use of a clicker as a marker, followed by a reward when she does the right thing. She now stands politely and calmly even when my pockets are full of food, never mugs or nips or bites. I would suspect she was in pain or sore if she tried. Giving her choices and rewarding her with something she values has been the key, not dominance, pressure/avoidance learning. Respect is a two way street, she doesn’t need a leader, she needs an understanding, patient partner.
Horses don’t know how to go to war.
Horses don’t know, also, how to love.
DO the two go hand in hand?
It is always ‘fear & greed’ as the root, whether it be the human or the horse. After that, intensity!
Tracey what I meant 2 say was why did u go into the Paddock without a Halter the horse thinks of u as a Predator I spend a lot of time with decentising my horses I use umbrellas streamers plastic bags on a long stick I rub my horse all over I put up umbrellas u nAme it I do it one mistake I c people do in restrain the horse I let him move away eventually he wIll stay with u I show my horses @they come up against a lot of things but if u have your horse trained 2
Move high hindquarters and side pass move the front end we do a lot of ground work before we even mount them as a great horseman said don’t just saddle up and get on llove the stories saddle congratlions Joy tyler Loftus NSW